[sakai-production] [sakai-all] [Proposal] Sakai proposals need to be sent to sakai-all email group for vetting

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Neal Caidin-3 Neal Caidin-3
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[sakai-production] [sakai-all] [Proposal] Sakai proposals need to be sent to sakai-all email group for vetting

[sakai-all]

The PMC Governance [1] policy talks about voting, but not communicating. I think there should be consistency on how to get feedback from the community.

Proposal
By default, Sakai proposals will be sent to the [hidden email] email list for community feedback and PMC (Project Management Committee) voting.

sakai-all sends to the following groups:
  • sakai-dev
  • sakai-qa
  • sakai-core
  • sakai-pmc
  • sakai-production
  • sakai-user
  • sakai-docs

sakai-all does NOT send to these groups (as examples, not comprehensive):
  • sakai-openforum
  • sakai-security
  • sakai-security-annc
  • sakai-marketing
  • sakai-qa-planning  (separate from Sakai QA)
  • sakai-turnitin
  • sakai-spanish
  • sakai-ux

etc.  Just wanted to bring visibility to some of the active groups that currently are not on the Sakai All list. Easy to add or remove a group if this list is not what we want over time. Sakai-all is a list to which one can individually subscribe without belonging to another google group. However, anyone subscribing to one of the included groups automatically receives Sakai-all messages without having to subscribe separately.

Moderated use of sakai-all :

Currently, The Sakai community coordinator is the only moderator of the Sakai-all group. It would be good to have a backup though I don't expect moderation will take much work. (It's just usually a good idea to have a backup). 

The group is set up as a moderated group. This will help avoid Spam.  Anyone in the community can send a proposal to Sakai-all , but a moderator will need to approve to send it on it's way. 


Rationale:

* Consistency - we need a consistent and clear way for community members to make proposals.

* Feedback and Transparency - By sending to the top active groups we open things up to make sure that the community understands proposals which are pending, and we get the most broad possible input. 


Feedback and voting:
Feedback from the community is welcome and encouraged, both PMC and non-PMC.  

As a reminder, this is a public, on-list vote for PMC members with a "+1" signifying approval. Per our governance documents, a -1 vote must be accompanied by a detailed explanation. A single -1 vote based on a material objection will block action. However, -1 blocking votes can be overridden by a 2/3 majority roll call vote of active PMC members.

Voting will be open till Monday, August 29, close of business.

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Steve Swinsburg-3 Steve Swinsburg-3
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Re: [sakai-production] [sakai-all] [Proposal] Sakai proposals need to be sent to sakai-all email group for vetting

I think this is ambiguous so -1 and we can clarify and resubmit.

I agree that any proposal should first go to sakai-all for community feedback.

However I think voting should take place only on the sakai-pmc list. The sakai-pmc list is an open list where anyone can participate, but only PMC votes are binding. Having a vote going out on the -all list would be noisy and may confuse some.

The results of the cote should then go out to sakai-all.

Cheers
Steve

sent from my mobile


On 24 Aug 2016 05:52, "Neal Caidin" <[hidden email]> wrote:
[sakai-all]

The PMC Governance [1] policy talks about voting, but not communicating. I think there should be consistency on how to get feedback from the community.

Proposal
By default, Sakai proposals will be sent to the [hidden email] email list for community feedback and PMC (Project Management Committee) voting.

sakai-all sends to the following groups:
  • sakai-dev
  • sakai-qa
  • sakai-core
  • sakai-pmc
  • sakai-production
  • sakai-user
  • sakai-docs

sakai-all does NOT send to these groups (as examples, not comprehensive):
  • sakai-openforum
  • sakai-security
  • sakai-security-annc
  • sakai-marketing
  • sakai-qa-planning  (separate from Sakai QA)
  • sakai-turnitin
  • sakai-spanish
  • sakai-ux

etc.  Just wanted to bring visibility to some of the active groups that currently are not on the Sakai All list. Easy to add or remove a group if this list is not what we want over time. Sakai-all is a list to which one can individually subscribe without belonging to another google group. However, anyone subscribing to one of the included groups automatically receives Sakai-all messages without having to subscribe separately.

Moderated use of sakai-all :

Currently, The Sakai community coordinator is the only moderator of the Sakai-all group. It would be good to have a backup though I don't expect moderation will take much work. (It's just usually a good idea to have a backup). 

The group is set up as a moderated group. This will help avoid Spam.  Anyone in the community can send a proposal to Sakai-all , but a moderator will need to approve to send it on it's way. 


Rationale:

* Consistency - we need a consistent and clear way for community members to make proposals.

* Feedback and Transparency - By sending to the top active groups we open things up to make sure that the community understands proposals which are pending, and we get the most broad possible input. 


Feedback and voting:
Feedback from the community is welcome and encouraged, both PMC and non-PMC.  

As a reminder, this is a public, on-list vote for PMC members with a "+1" signifying approval. Per our governance documents, a -1 vote must be accompanied by a detailed explanation. A single -1 vote based on a material objection will block action. However, -1 blocking votes can be overridden by a 2/3 majority roll call vote of active PMC members.

Voting will be open till Monday, August 29, close of business.

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Gordon, Trisha (psg3a) Gordon, Trisha (psg3a)
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Re: [sakai-production] [sakai-all] [Proposal] Sakai proposals need to be sent to sakai-all email group for vetting

The only problem with Steve’s proposal is that the PMC list is a closed list – if you’re not on it, your emails to it get rejected (or maybe just held for moderation?).

From: <[hidden email]> on behalf of Steve Swinsburg <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 at 3:43 AM
To: Caidin Neal <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [sakai-production] [sakai-all] [Proposal] Sakai proposals need to be sent to sakai-all email group for vetting

I think this is ambiguous so -1 and we can clarify and resubmit.

I agree that any proposal should first go to sakai-all for community feedback.

However I think voting should take place only on the sakai-pmc list. The sakai-pmc list is an open list where anyone can participate, but only PMC votes are binding. Having a vote going out on the -all list would be noisy and may confuse some.

The results of the cote should then go out to sakai-all.

Cheers
Steve

sent from my mobile


On 24 Aug 2016 05:52, "Neal Caidin" <[hidden email]> wrote:
[sakai-all]

The PMC Governance [1] policy talks about voting, but not communicating. I think there should be consistency on how to get feedback from the community.

Proposal
By default, Sakai proposals will be sent to the [hidden email] email list for community feedback and PMC (Project Management Committee) voting.

sakai-all sends to the following groups:
  • sakai-dev
  • sakai-qa
  • sakai-core
  • sakai-pmc
  • sakai-production
  • sakai-user
  • sakai-docs

sakai-all does NOT send to these groups (as examples, not comprehensive):
  • sakai-openforum
  • sakai-security
  • sakai-security-annc
  • sakai-marketing
  • sakai-qa-planning  (separate from Sakai QA)
  • sakai-turnitin
  • sakai-spanish
  • sakai-ux

etc.  Just wanted to bring visibility to some of the active groups that currently are not on the Sakai All list. Easy to add or remove a group if this list is not what we want over time. Sakai-all is a list to which one can individually subscribe without belonging to another google group. However, anyone subscribing to one of the included groups automatically receives Sakai-all messages without having to subscribe separately.

Moderated use of sakai-all :

Currently, The Sakai community coordinator is the only moderator of the Sakai-all group. It would be good to have a backup though I don't expect moderation will take much work. (It's just usually a good idea to have a backup). 

The group is set up as a moderated group. This will help avoid Spam.  Anyone in the community can send a proposal to Sakai-all , but a moderator will need to approve to send it on it's way. 


Rationale:

* Consistency - we need a consistent and clear way for community members to make proposals.

* Feedback and Transparency - By sending to the top active groups we open things up to make sure that the community understands proposals which are pending, and we get the most broad possible input. 


Feedback and voting:
Feedback from the community is welcome and encouraged, both PMC and non-PMC.  

As a reminder, this is a public, on-list vote for PMC members with a "+1" signifying approval. Per our governance documents, a -1 vote must be accompanied by a detailed explanation. A single -1 vote based on a material objection will block action. However, -1 blocking votes can be overridden by a 2/3 majority roll call vote of active PMC members.

Voting will be open till Monday, August 29, close of business.

--
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Neal Caidin-3 Neal Caidin-3
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Re: [sakai-production] [sakai-all] [Proposal] Sakai proposals need to be sent to sakai-all email group for vetting

Hi Patricia, 

If the PMC wishes, I could change the settings on the PMC list so that it accepts Public posts (meaning you don't have to be subscribed to send an email).  It is an easy change to make to the list settings.

A concern I have with Steve's proposal is serializing the process, meaning that decision making time will be the amount of time for community input, x, and then the time for the PMC decisions, y.  It will take x+y time. And for releases we not infrequently need to make decisions under a time crunch.

If we have both going on in parallel, feedback (community) + decision making (pmc), then we will have two different threads, which I think would be confusing.

I'm a bit unclear. Hasn't the community standard been to send a proposal to a public list or lists + the Sakai PMC at the same time and have the feedback and voting on one thread? Has that not been working okay?

(Btw, thanks Steve for supporting the proposal in spirit. These are just minor details to work through.)

2 cents ,
Neal



On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Gordon, Patricia S. (Trisha) (psg3a) <[hidden email]> wrote:
The only problem with Steve’s proposal is that the PMC list is a closed list – if you’re not on it, your emails to it get rejected (or maybe just held for moderation?).

From: <[hidden email]> on behalf of Steve Swinsburg <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 at 3:43 AM
To: Caidin Neal <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [sakai-production] [sakai-all] [Proposal] Sakai proposals need to be sent to sakai-all email group for vetting

I think this is ambiguous so -1 and we can clarify and resubmit.

I agree that any proposal should first go to sakai-all for community feedback.

However I think voting should take place only on the sakai-pmc list. The sakai-pmc list is an open list where anyone can participate, but only PMC votes are binding. Having a vote going out on the -all list would be noisy and may confuse some.

The results of the cote should then go out to sakai-all.

Cheers
Steve

sent from my mobile


On 24 Aug 2016 05:52, "Neal Caidin" <[hidden email]> wrote:
[sakai-all]

The PMC Governance [1] policy talks about voting, but not communicating. I think there should be consistency on how to get feedback from the community.

Proposal
By default, Sakai proposals will be sent to the [hidden email] email list for community feedback and PMC (Project Management Committee) voting.

sakai-all sends to the following groups:
  • sakai-dev
  • sakai-qa
  • sakai-core
  • sakai-pmc
  • sakai-production
  • sakai-user
  • sakai-docs

sakai-all does NOT send to these groups (as examples, not comprehensive):
  • sakai-openforum
  • sakai-security
  • sakai-security-annc
  • sakai-marketing
  • sakai-qa-planning  (separate from Sakai QA)
  • sakai-turnitin
  • sakai-spanish
  • sakai-ux

etc.  Just wanted to bring visibility to some of the active groups that currently are not on the Sakai All list. Easy to add or remove a group if this list is not what we want over time. Sakai-all is a list to which one can individually subscribe without belonging to another google group. However, anyone subscribing to one of the included groups automatically receives Sakai-all messages without having to subscribe separately.

Moderated use of sakai-all :

Currently, The Sakai community coordinator is the only moderator of the Sakai-all group. It would be good to have a backup though I don't expect moderation will take much work. (It's just usually a good idea to have a backup). 

The group is set up as a moderated group. This will help avoid Spam.  Anyone in the community can send a proposal to Sakai-all , but a moderator will need to approve to send it on it's way. 


Rationale:

* Consistency - we need a consistent and clear way for community members to make proposals.

* Feedback and Transparency - By sending to the top active groups we open things up to make sure that the community understands proposals which are pending, and we get the most broad possible input. 


Feedback and voting:
Feedback from the community is welcome and encouraged, both PMC and non-PMC.  

As a reminder, this is a public, on-list vote for PMC members with a "+1" signifying approval. Per our governance documents, a -1 vote must be accompanied by a detailed explanation. A single -1 vote based on a material objection will block action. However, -1 blocking votes can be overridden by a 2/3 majority roll call vote of active PMC members.

Voting will be open till Monday, August 29, close of business.

--
You will automatically receive messages sent to Sakai-all if you are subscribed to any one of sakai-security, sakai-core, sakai-pmc, sakai-production, sakai-dev, sakai-docs, sakai-qa, sakai-user.
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Noah Botimer Noah Botimer
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Re: [sakai-core] Re: [sakai-production] [sakai-all] [Proposal] Sakai proposals need to be sent to sakai-all email group for vetting

I won't comment much on the new proposal directly -- mostly a bit of background.

Typically, discussions/suggestions happen on the dev (or other) list. Once an idea is clear enough to make a proposal, someone on the PMC does just that. The chair evaluates if we are ready to vote, and if so, calls it.

Occasionally, a proposal has "started" within the PMC (not a direct result of a specific public thread, but say, coming out of a planning meeting). When it was very clear, it turned into a proposal without much refinement. Sometimes, a little debate about specifics happens in the PMC first. Sometimes, it becomes apparent that more general discussion is needed, and it goes to a broader list, following the above pattern (a new proposal comes forth, again, from a PMC member).

This is a pretty typical governance pattern, where a voting member "sponsors" a bill/petition/proposal. It is often a collaborative writing effort for us, again, pretty typical.

I would clarify feedback/voting: we have been careful to have discussion and THEN voting. A +1 doesn't come with amendments or conditions. A -1 requires brief rationale, but it is not the time for debate. So, no, I would say that these have not happened in one thread, at least when things are working well. We have been self-policing in terms of when to go back for general feedback. This last piece seems the thrust of the new proposal -- a "we're probably going to vote on this" pattern.

I would hesitate to allow unmoderated posting to the PMC list. The point is that we have a place for the gathered/authority body to have transparent proceedings -- but not a free-for-all.

As for your timing concern, I'm not sure working in parallel solves it. If we decide that something needs feedback, we must do that first. There comes a time when any proposal must be locked for voting, otherwise we court more confusion and indecision.

If we want to structure feedback around draft proposals, with a period for amendment (and maybe another feedback round) before vote, so be it. If we want to have fluid discussion that results in concrete proposals, without a dictated feedback period, so be it.

I think things have worked pretty well mechanically, but certainly support more transparency and feedback. We just have to acknowledge that it necessarily involves another step and time component unless we have "big enough" and "small enough" categories, where we would and would not await feedback, respectively.

Thanks,
-Noah

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Neal Caidin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Patricia, 

If the PMC wishes, I could change the settings on the PMC list so that it accepts Public posts (meaning you don't have to be subscribed to send an email).  It is an easy change to make to the list settings.

A concern I have with Steve's proposal is serializing the process, meaning that decision making time will be the amount of time for community input, x, and then the time for the PMC decisions, y.  It will take x+y time. And for releases we not infrequently need to make decisions under a time crunch.

If we have both going on in parallel, feedback (community) + decision making (pmc), then we will have two different threads, which I think would be confusing.

I'm a bit unclear. Hasn't the community standard been to send a proposal to a public list or lists + the Sakai PMC at the same time and have the feedback and voting on one thread? Has that not been working okay?

(Btw, thanks Steve for supporting the proposal in spirit. These are just minor details to work through.)

2 cents ,
Neal



On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Gordon, Patricia S. (Trisha) (psg3a) <[hidden email]> wrote:
The only problem with Steve’s proposal is that the PMC list is a closed list – if you’re not on it, your emails to it get rejected (or maybe just held for moderation?).

From: <[hidden email]> on behalf of Steve Swinsburg <[hidden email]>
Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2016 at 3:43 AM
To: Caidin Neal <[hidden email]>
Cc: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [sakai-production] [sakai-all] [Proposal] Sakai proposals need to be sent to sakai-all email group for vetting

I think this is ambiguous so -1 and we can clarify and resubmit.

I agree that any proposal should first go to sakai-all for community feedback.

However I think voting should take place only on the sakai-pmc list. The sakai-pmc list is an open list where anyone can participate, but only PMC votes are binding. Having a vote going out on the -all list would be noisy and may confuse some.

The results of the cote should then go out to sakai-all.

Cheers
Steve

sent from my mobile


On 24 Aug 2016 05:52, "Neal Caidin" <[hidden email]> wrote:
[sakai-all]

The PMC Governance [1] policy talks about voting, but not communicating. I think there should be consistency on how to get feedback from the community.

Proposal
By default, Sakai proposals will be sent to the [hidden email] email list for community feedback and PMC (Project Management Committee) voting.

sakai-all sends to the following groups:
  • sakai-dev
  • sakai-qa
  • sakai-core
  • sakai-pmc
  • sakai-production
  • sakai-user
  • sakai-docs

sakai-all does NOT send to these groups (as examples, not comprehensive):
  • sakai-openforum
  • sakai-security
  • sakai-security-annc
  • sakai-marketing
  • sakai-qa-planning  (separate from Sakai QA)
  • sakai-turnitin
  • sakai-spanish
  • sakai-ux

etc.  Just wanted to bring visibility to some of the active groups that currently are not on the Sakai All list. Easy to add or remove a group if this list is not what we want over time. Sakai-all is a list to which one can individually subscribe without belonging to another google group. However, anyone subscribing to one of the included groups automatically receives Sakai-all messages without having to subscribe separately.

Moderated use of sakai-all :

Currently, The Sakai community coordinator is the only moderator of the Sakai-all group. It would be good to have a backup though I don't expect moderation will take much work. (It's just usually a good idea to have a backup). 

The group is set up as a moderated group. This will help avoid Spam.  Anyone in the community can send a proposal to Sakai-all , but a moderator will need to approve to send it on it's way. 


Rationale:

* Consistency - we need a consistent and clear way for community members to make proposals.

* Feedback and Transparency - By sending to the top active groups we open things up to make sure that the community understands proposals which are pending, and we get the most broad possible input. 


Feedback and voting:
Feedback from the community is welcome and encouraged, both PMC and non-PMC.  

As a reminder, this is a public, on-list vote for PMC members with a "+1" signifying approval. Per our governance documents, a -1 vote must be accompanied by a detailed explanation. A single -1 vote based on a material objection will block action. However, -1 blocking votes can be overridden by a 2/3 majority roll call vote of active PMC members.

Voting will be open till Monday, August 29, close of business.

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